Back

Sometimes I like to dig around a bit and find out what they actually *mean*. "I [hate\am bad at\etc] maths" doesn't really contain much info when you think about it: what do you mean by "maths"? How would you recognise it if it entered the room? What are your criteria for not being able to "do" it? What does "doing" and "not doing" maths look like to you? What do you think the difference is between people who "can do maths" and those who "can't do maths"?

@themanual4am I agree that mathematics is often painted as cold, etc, and I'd include 'uncreative' in that: I hear a lot of people say they don't like / can't do maths because they're 'creative', which always strikes me as a decidedly uncreative position to hold.

This is connected, I think, with the regular complaint that maths is 'illogical' and 'doesn't make sense', when in fact maths is supremely logical: its entire foundation is explicitly in logic. What people mean when they say 'it's not logical' is 'my feelings don't make a difference to the truth', which is an entirely different situation. People often think they're being logical when they're actually being emotive. I think this might be where the idea that maths is 'cold' stems from, but it's no colder than, say, practicing mindfulness.

There are a *lot* of misconceptions about mathematics that are accepted as truths by much of the Western population, and they are the sources of most problems that people have with the subject, and I think your implication that where and when we do maths are as important as how and why we do it: if we only do it at a particular time each week, with a particular person, in a particular room, this reinforces particular beliefs regardless of what actually happens.

@TeaKayB

Hello, sorry for the late reply. an involved week!

Yes, agree. I'm reminded of this quote from Eugenia

I'm interested in your comment about mathematics related perspectives (and respective causes) of western populations -- can you say more?

@themanual4am
I agree that people can be put off maths by their early exposure to it but I don't know what the solution to this is: it's certainly not that "maths teachers just need to make maths more fun!" - that's a narrative that annoys me more and more over time. The key problem is not that formal mathematics education makes everyone hate maths. The key problem is that formal education is the only interaction that most people have with maths.

If formal education was the only opportunity people had to interact with, say, books, we'd have the same general attitude in society to books that we see with maths. School English lessons give us a formal framework within which to develop our understanding of books and literature, but the installation of reading as a normal thing to choose to do with your spare time outside of the classroom happens **outside of the classroom**. Most people who love reading have not realised that love inside English classrooms. They've found it by being encouraged and enabled to explore books and stories informally amongst their friends and family in the evening, at weekends and during holidays.

I'm pretty confident that the same is true of the vast majority of people who count mathematics as one of their personal interests.

Widespread negativity to mathematics is not solely attributable to maths teachers and cannot be solved solely by maths teachers.

@TeaKayB

sure, that wasn't my intent with the quote (and i'll need to re-read that section for context!)

i hear you (and agree) that the onus ought not be on frontline teachers to solve this society wide issue

your point on reading is interesting, what might equivalent look like

reading begins with simpler books, then builds. typically stories are relatable, apply to our lives in some way

so, part communication of applicability of math or mathematical thinking, part something else... reading is typically passive – the reader is led through a story, and a picture is built in the mind

a crossover sounds like "intuition tales" of some kind – as a first step, rather than focus on the detail of any mathematical form, perhaps look for ways to reinterpret or re-present mathematical essences by metaphor, or similar, (then relate back)

does that make sense?

> and while i hear you (and agree) that the onus ought not be on frontline teachers to solve this society wide issue – individuals with experience teaching mathematics might be well placed to implement something like this (and certainly provide valuable insight and contribution)

is there such a thing as 'applied mathematical intuitions' by story, or some other form?

@TeaKayB

Hello! It's been a while!

Sure, yes. I was pointing at a pavlovian type association, attributing negative consequences of a suboptimal learning environment to "insufficient personal capability", or similar: typically toward the task at hand in the moment; in this case mathematics

I think that sometimes when can't do something and don't understand why, we blame ourselves, and almost unconsciously conclude that "we simply can't do that thing, no matter how much we try"

I suggest that this is a selected for operational optimisation. In principle: once x attempts to "climb a tree" (or whatever) prove unsuccessful, with undetermined cause, stop wasting finite energy/ resources; in effect, flag the task-category to be avoided in the future

At that point (speculating), any attempt to persuade an individual to retry in earnest, must include sufficient concrete information to resolve either:

1. "what went wrong originally". To reevaluate causal circumstances enough to try again given new circumstances

2. "what must be done now, explicitly". A literal cognitive step-by-step, to lead a persons focussed-attention though sufficient conceptual waypoints to reach some related objective, thus directly demonstrating to them "perhaps they *can* do this after all"

So yes, absolutely -- whatever the topic/ task at hand (including mathematics), I think that 1 and 2 relate to operational mechanics of cognition, learning and autonomy; and that for some, no amount of "damn the fruit up there is swee-eee-eet" will be enough to persuade them it is worth trying again

I suppose, if madness is repeating the same thing again expecting different results, then we need to demonstrate *this time isn't the same*

@themanual4am yeah, I found the response in my drafts (which means internet access had failed when I tried to post but I didn't notice).

I think both 1&2 can be made harder where the person is / has been immersed in a culture of negativity towards maths, and eased (however slightly, but I suspect proportionally) if they've generally been surrounded by maths-happiness. This is a large part of why I think it's important to work towards better attitudes to maths in society, and that this can't happen if the responsibility for this is entirely on maths teachers.

@benleis
I don't think I'm trying to 'win everyone over' to maths. I just want people to stop being so kneejerk negative about it all the time. Yes, part of this is about gaining the confidence to show off your own love of maths, part of this is about better educational opportunities (for adults, whether formal or informal, but especially the latter), but part of it must be pointing out that the level of vitriol with which so many people react to the merest mention of mathematics is just bizarre.

People (a group which notably includes children) are immersed in a society composed of people who reacts to mentions of mathematics in a way that, were they to react in the same way to a different benign interest, would lead to them being sat down in a quiet room, provided with a glass of water and asked if they needed to talk about something because that really wasn't rational way to respond to someone who mentioned that they liked stamp collecting.

I'm trying to find relatively nice and non-confrontational ways of saying "please realise that what you're doing is not only really weird but also actively damaging so please think about not doing it any more, or at least toning it down a bit in front of the kids," because letting it continue isn't really a viable option.

@TeaKayB @benleis This: "level of vitriol with which so many people react to the merest mention of mathematics is just bizarre".

@TeaKayB @benleis But also: we probably *should* be sitting down with these people and helping them work through their feelings about maths and what let them there.

@DavidKButler @benleis
Yes, indeed. When the opportunity arises those of us with the confidence and patience to do so must try. On other occasions a friendly "that's a bit of an odd reaction, are you alright mate?" might at least plant a seed of thought.

@Bruce @RealityMinus3
I sometimes have a reflex response to "this is boring" of "you're boring", which is possibly not helpful.

@TeaKayB @Bruce Well, I mean ... sometimes a shock of confrontation startles a person into reconsideration. Instead of what probably amounts to cajoling or pleading, which provides a surface to push back against, I do also favor a direct "thanks for shitting on my subject" or "that's a hurtful thing to say." Prompt them to take responsibility for their words.

@RealityMinus3 @Bruce
Good point. Sometimes people need to hear "actually, that's not fair".